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Since
June 17, 1982, Zacharia Baumel, a soldier in an Israeli tank unit
has been missing in action. The following interview with his parents,
Yonah and Miriam Baumel, is a testimony to the apathy and disorder
the issue of Israel's MIA's has received. This interview was conducted
on September 4, 1995. B'tzedek: What is your understanding of the current status of your son's situation? Miriam Baumel: Well, we have a letter from Rabin . . . what it says basically [is] that they don't know. That there has been positive information and negative information as to their being alive. Depending on who you talk to in the Army and who believes what. We are in a position that we just don't know. We keep on getting information. We don't know exactly how many and who [are alive]. We do know . . . we won't say. The information keeps coming through that these boys are alive and being held in Syrian controlled territory. B'tzedek: Is that the official position of the government? Miriam Baumel: No, it's not. Yonah Baumel: The official position is that they do not know. The unofficial position in the Army is that they think that the boys are dead. We keep getting information [that some of] them are alive. We are at a standoff - we can't prove it, they can't prove it. Miriam Baumel: The question is: What is the activity for those . . . do they consider them alive or do they consider them dead? This is the problem. It's always been that way and we feel that [an] effort needs to be made for all [of the MIA's] until information comes through and there is proof [of their status]. That's the way we sit with it. And we have to live like this all the time because we just don't know. B'tzedek: There was a Jordanian reporter, Haroun Mahamid, who passed on information about your son and your son's army dog-tag while visiting a PLO prison in Lebanon? Miriam Baumel: This Jordanian reporter who we knew about before, talked about having seen our son in captivity passed the time when the Army claimed that they could have been dead, you know what I mean . . . and that takes us over a hurdle of a certain time because some people in the Army say they were killed in the field of battle . . . finished. You have how many were killed in the Lebanon War, five-hundred, six-hundred? So you add on a few more. And that's the end of that story. [The Army] decided that he [the reporter] is not reliable and his information is not reliable. But the problem is, when they talk about bodies [dead soldiers] the same [sort of] people in the PLO are reliable. Their sources are reliable, so I feel that it is very unfair because if you refute one [source] you have to refute them all. Now, the dog-tag was returned in '93 . . . at the end of '93. December '93. Arafat gave it over to a representative of Rabin. Half the dog-tag. We know that in '84 a wax impression of Zack's [Zacharia's] dog-tag was received here in Israel by Aharon Barnea [an Israeli reporter] and the dog-tag was intact. So, we claim that Arafat must have broken it when he gave it over. There is no saying that Arafat doesn't have any other dog-tags. If he has one, he may have others. He probably has others. We always have operated on the premise that they are alive - all those from [the battle of] Sultan Ya'acoub. That Arafat has to give the information of where he secured the dog-tags and where are the others [ is imperative]. B'tzedek: Can you tell us the exact location where the Jordanian reporter said that he saw your son? Miriam Baumel: Lebanon. An area under Syrian control. The problem is that when he had first told about it, Yonah had gone to Jordan to view this reporter . . . Yonah Baumel: Well, he was the head of the Hebrew language news of Jordan and in the summer of '85 he announced over Jordanian television that Zachary Baumel - and singled him out - was being held by the Palestinians in the Bekaa Valley, in Balbek. About a year later, I went to Jordan with an Israeli/American Lawyer under the exiguous of the American Embassy there, along with Counsel officials, we spoke to this journalist. The lawyer who came along, who is an expert in cross examination, . . . he [the journalist] reiterated his story how he saw Zach and how he had Zach's Pinkas Choger [Military Rank Card] in his hand with a picture and he was able to make positive identification when he saw Zach through a small opening of a door [in the PLO prison]. The Army's reaction to that was that a soldier does not go into battle with a Pinkas Choger but rather with a Pinkas Shivuye [Prisoner of War Card]. The fact of the matter is that a lot of soldiers go in [to battle] with their Pinkas Choger instead of their Pinkas Shivuye, . . . . Miriam Baumel: He was called in [to the army] from the Yeshiva . . . Yonah Baumel: Zach was in Hesder [combined military service and yeshiva study program], just at the end of the Yeshiva part of Hesder he was registered and going on to college after that. We never found his pinkas choger either in the stuff that the Yeshiva returned to us or here [at home]. Which negatively . . . if it were found we would be able to let go of the story. It doesn't prove that . . . it proves that at least it isn't wrong [the account of the Jordanian reporter]. B'tzedek: When was the last time that you heard from non-governmental of sources regarding your son's whereabouts? Yonah Baumel: May of this year. B'tzedek: May 1995? Yonah Baumel: That is correct. B'tzedek: It would seem that the dog-tag is not just some disjointed piece of material, but rather, it must eventually lead a trail to your son? Miriam Baumel: The information that we have is that Arafat's group had control of these particular prisoners. We had spoken to a reporter who we haven't succeeded in finding, who told this particular lawyer, who Yonah had traveled with when he was in [Jordan], he told him that he was invited by a PLO person to interview Israeli prisoners in August of '82. He was an American reporter for one of the magazines. Yonah Baumel: He's a closet Jew. Miriam Baumel: I have his name but I have been unable to find him. He said that he was invited by this PLO person to interview the prisoners. When he got there with the camera crew the people who were guarding them said that [he could] not let anyone in to see our prisoners, so this, in effect, shows the beginning change of charge of these particular prisoners. So, we know from this Arab [Jordanian] reporter that they [Israeli MIA's] changed hands. Syrian-Palestinians took control of these particular prisoners and the dog-tags remained with Arafat. So we know this, but we don't want to put the words into Arafat's mouth. We want Arafat to give the information. We also know that when the wax impression was received that the dog-tags were being held in a safe. Yonah Baumel: The dog-tag was held by Abu-Jihad. When he was killed there was a fight between Arafat and Um-Jihad as to the proprietorship [of] the contents of this safe. And eventually Arafat gained control. We have friends in the PLO at various positions. So our penetration of the PLO is fairly good and so we know what goes on there - not perfect, and that doesn't mean that it's always correct - but fairly good, fairly accurate reports. The reason that we are able to press the Prime Minister [Rabin] to get the dog-tag back, is because we knew exactly where it was. And we told him that it was inconceivable now that you are meeting with Arafat at least you can get the dog-tag back. B'tzedek: Why did the prisoners change hands? Miriam Baumel: If you recall, at a certain point Arafat had his back to the wall [in Beirut], then he released the six [prisoners] that he was holding. There were two that were held by Jabril and Jabril never admitted to holding Hezi Shai who was the commander of Zach's tank, until he was pressured very hard because they had information that Jabril had Hezi Shai. When they had the exchange the following year with Syria, when Hezi Shai came back with the two Nachal soldiers. Originally there were eight Nachal soldiers that were being held by Arafat. Two of them were given over to Jabril. Yonah Baumel: It was like a sales tax. Miriam Baumel: And everybody used them as pawns. Yonah Baumel: According to the information that we received the group that controlled the MIA's, which was loyal to Arafat, defected to Syria in the early part of 1983 taking with them the MIA's. All of the MIA's that were alive. B'tzedek: Where do you suspect the MIA's are being held today? Yonah Baumel: In the Bekaa Valley. This information goes back several years. Held by Lebanese. More moderate Lebanese who are in the employ of the Syrians. B'tzedek: With the dog-tag, the impressions, all the information which has been amassed over the past thirteen years, how have we come closer to your son and the other MIA's? Yonah Baumel: We have current information. B'tzedek: What is being done with it? Yonah Baumel: We are receiving information in '94, in '93, in '92. Historically, the Syrians have kept Israeli soldiers incommunicado for up to sixteen-years. There is the case of Reuben Libis, in which the Syrians continued to deny they were holding him until one day they said that: there was something that we want and we are ready to make an exchange. Miriam Baumel: Our problem is . . . well, we have requested that the Palestinian prisoner release be linked to the release of the MIA's and this they have refused to do . . . the government - everybody there. It would impede their peace plan. Yonah Baumel: The basic problem is [that] the Left won't help us because they feel that it would impede the peace process. And the Right won't help us because they feel that it would facilitate the peace process. I mean that this is a simple explanation. There are people on the left that would help us and people on the right, but in general . . . Miriam Baumel: There is no one party that would say that they are behind us. We have approached Natanyahu and we have approached [everybody] else. There has been no official willingness to back the MIA's. Maybe if they could on an individual basis, if we ask something specific. And even then . . . . Yonah Baumel: The best friend of the MIA's in the Knesset is Gandhi [Rachavam Ze'evi]. He is the only one who will consistently go to bat. The NRP [National Religious Party] will say pious things . . . good, but not enough. The Likud - here and there are people who do, but as a party they keep away from it. Labor follows the line of the government. Meretz - there is nothing to speak of . . ." Miriam Baumel: . . . Agudah [Agudat Yisrael], the same thing. We've been in and out of the Knesset. B'tzedek: You have said what is NOT being done. So, what IS being done? Yonah Baumel: I'll tell you something, if we are going back historically in time, on July 4, 1982, the Syrians and Assiaka, which is a Syrian-Palestinian group, had a big show-funeral in the Jewish cemetery in Damascus where ostensibly they buried the bodies of four Israeli soldiers. The names that were given and the pinkasim [documents] that were put on the graves - pinkas choger that they found - did not match the MIA's. Miriam Baumel: They were of soldiers who had returned home safely to Israel . . . Yonah Baumel: . . . but had left their effects in the field of battle. The Israeli's figured that the Syrians don't lie on things like this, they are trouble-makers, they may have not gotten the names right, but if they said that they buried Israeli soldiers - they buried Israeli soldiers. They told the parents that they were hunting while the trail was hot. They weren't. Today they admit their mistake. On Yom Kippur of 1983, the graves were exhumed by the Red Cross and it was found that it was one Israeli soldier - one of the MIA's - and three Arabs buried there. By then, the trail was cold. You have to understand something - we've learned a great deal about intelligence work. Now, when there's flux, when there is war, it is comparatively easy to enter enemy territory because there's a lot of refugees, a lot of movement, a lot of strangers. When things settle down, the stranger is suspect. When we had a Christian clergyman, who we won't identify any further, who used to visit Lebanon regularly, as many Christian clergymen do, he brought back information that Zach was alive. He said one of the others is alive also. We sent him back to bring more information and they sent him back telling him that if he comes again he is not going to leave there alive. During the war, or near the post-war, you can get people that got into the villages. Miriam Baumel: They tell us that they are doing everything - those are their words. We talk to the people in the Army and they are not specific. And we've gotten, because of our disappointment, we've gotten very skeptical of what they are doing. You don't feel that they are really doing much of anything and that they are paused and that they expect that when peace comes with Syria this matter will be settled. Not necessarily before, because they won't impede anything [the peace process] for the sake of the soldiers. It's very sad to say. So we go out and try to make our own contacts. Yonah is in contact with the Arab world and I try to get foreign elements to assist us in pressing the governments that can give us the information. Including, pressing the United States because any country that gives money to Arafat, in essence, is ignoring the fact that their are MIA's and information that he [Arafat] hasn't given us. So, this is very upsetting and this, in consequence, interferes with what this government wants - the loans to be given. And that is why the Foreign Ministry and we are in a collision course. B'tzedek: But Arafat you say, is no longer in control of the MIA's? Miriam Baumel: What I am saying is the information that he gives would also settle [the matter for] those who say that they died - if he gives us information. Not just speaking about vacant graves all the time, which is what they want to believe here, but no proof has been forthcoming. We are just as interested in finding proof that they are dead . . . but this limbo that we are living in . . . . B'tzedek: Perhaps much more should be done on behalf of your son and the rest of the MIA's? Do you believe that the Israeli government is sweeping aside the issue of the MIA's in order to facilitate their own agenda? Miriam Baumel: That's right. We had a hunger strike at that time when we didn't want anything [regarding the Oslo agreement] to be done, anything finalized until this matter was settled, and they refused. That's very discouraging. Fine words from every politician - it didn't matter what his nationality - politicians know how to throw words in order to get the people to get off their backs. I don't want to believe words anymore, I want action. B'tzedek: It seems ironic that Israel, world famous for its intelligence services, that is, the Mossad and their abilities in international intrigue . . . Miriam Baumel: It's not the same today. The motivation is different completely. B'tzedek: One would think that this would be a priority for the intelligence service. Miriam Baumel: But the morals of Israel today are . . . just not the same as they used to be. B'tzedek: Are you saying that the MIA's are not a high priority for the Israeli government? Miriam Baumel: Certainly. We are very low on the priorities list. B'tzedek: In October of 1985 the Russians were the targets of Arab terrorism in Lebanon. The incident occurred when Soviet attaches in Beirut were abducted. The Russians acted swiftly and kidnapped members of the terrorists' families. The terrorists received body parts of their loved ones and within weeks relented. Yonah Baumel: I'm quite sure that there probably is no other country in the world except Russia, with their system, who do as much as Israel has done [for their MIA's]. Certainly the Americans in Viet Nam did far less. Miriam Baumel: But on the other hand the Americans learned a lesson and in the Gulf War [the Americans] refused to leave Iraq until all the MIA's were accounted for. Yonah Baumel: They refused a cease-fire. The Iraqis said they don't know [about the MIA's] and the Americans said they were not going to agree to a cease-fire and suddenly all the American MIA's tuned up. There wasn't a single [soldier] unaccounted for . . . Miriam Baumel: That's what we claim with the prisoners. Because if they would press with the prisoners then the families of these prisoners, and also those that are interested in having them released, would certainly be on our side [insisting] that the information be released. Yonah Baumel: The idea is this - they have done a hell of a lot. The amount of support that they have given the families to go out on their own and . . . is tremendous . . . on the other hand, when push came to shove they were not willing to do what we considered basic because they felt that it was going to interfere with the peace process. B'tzedek: You say that 'they have done a hell of a lot', yet, when it really means something it seems that they won't take that step . . . . Miriam Baumel: That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Yonah Baumel: Up to a certain point. Miriam Baumel: What we consider the primary purpose is to get them back home. B'tzedek: The tachlis? Yonah Baumel: We have received information, some more specific, some less specific, that some of the boys are alive. And we have gotten remarkably similar information from many sources. Miriam Baumel: Nabi Berri claimed that he had three Israeli soldiers by name. He named the three missing from Sultan Ya'acoub and the Army told us that they were ninety-nine percent sure that it wasn't ours. So what we said was that ninety-nine percent is not enough, we wanted one hundred percent and we had them [the bodies] exhumed. We had to pay a price each time. You pay a price for every little bit. So withholding information gets you someplace also. Yonah Baumel: What happened is that the Army refused. Berri's wife is an Arab-American and he's the holder of a green-card. So he is a little more accessible. So we told him - if you won't do it, we will. So, when he saw that we were serious they decided that it would be better if they did it. The bodies were exhumed - and they weren't [the MIA's] they were SLA men. We don't believe that Arafat has bodies. We say this: if he has bodies, or if he knows, has access to bodies, and they're our sons - at least it will end our doubt . . . . If they aren't, this gives more credence to our scenario. What has to be done is [that] sufficient pressure has to be put on Arafat to point the finger where these bodies are. The other thing is to try to put enough pressure on the government here, which we have been unsuccessful at. It's a great country but . . . look . . . the [number] 26 bus blew-up in Jerusalem. For two days it was a horror. After that, it is as if life goes on as usual. The people are indifferent. B'tzedek: So what is it that you do in order to move the government? Miriam Baumel: We plague them. We visit them, we make meetings, we yell. Yonah Baumel: We do our own thing. We have been on somewhat of a collision course because as unlikely as we appear, we have a good intelligence network. Sometimes we may dig up an agent in the field who they have not activated. One of their own - I don't know if you are that familiar with the way the Israeli intelligence works world-wide operates, this is no place to give a lecture on it - but there are a lot of stringers and in some cases we have activated them and with startling and embarrassing results. Miriam Baumel: Over the past half a year Rabin, if he wanted something, he would order closures or something when it was important to them. But on this matter they won't do it. Yonah Baumel: The big culprit, by the way, is more Peres than Rabin. He [Rabin] has been more cooperative than Peres. The basic thing that we are demanding now is this - every time there is a meeting between Arafat and Peres or Rabin or their negotiating teams, the first thing Arafat issues in his communication is the demand of the return of the [Arab terrorist] prisoners we want the Israeli government to make a public demand that Arafat divulge where the MIA's are being held, all the facts that he knows about it. Now their are things that we are not at liberty to go into here but we know that he knows and the government knows that he knows - in fact, Rabin said that he thinks that he [Arafat] knows. Peres says, whatever he [Arafat] says, he's willing to believe him. And Beilin said that these boys are expendable so . . . Miriam Baumel: Now, in the Cairo agreement there is a sentence about Arafat divulging [information about the MIA's]. The only thing is [that] whenever they refer to the Oslo agreement . . . but they arranged the Oslo meetings with the PLO on the pretext of working for the MIA's and the MIA's were never mentioned. Yonah Baumel: Peres admitted that [at] first . . . there was a law preventing Israelis meeting with PLO people. I was in Tunis in 1989, but Rabin said that the MIA's were outside of the boundaries [of the law] and he supported my trip. The original contacts with the PLO were made under the pretext of discussing the MIA's when they were really discussing the peace process. Peres admitted that they were cynical about it and that they were using it as a pretext. |
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